Interview Toshiyuko Kita

Japanese Design Overview: Interview with Designer Toshiyuki Kita

Article written for LADF by: I.D. Carlos Alberto Montana Hoyos (Colombia)

Introduction and background

Toshiyuki Kita is nowadays one of the most prolific and influential Japanese designers, not only in his country, but all around the world. He was recently selected by I.D. Magazine as one of the 40 most influential designers around the world. He was born in Osaka, Japan in 1942 and graduated in Industrial Design at Osaka University of Arts in 1964. In 1967 he established a design office in Osaka, studying habitat, lifestyle and traditional craftwork in local areas and in 1969 he moved to Italy and worked in diverse projects. He held some of his first solo exhibitions in Tokyo and Osaka in 1977 & 1979. After a work of more than 35 years between Japan and Italy , he has designed a wide variety of objects and spaces that go from traditional Japanese handcrafts (such as Japanese “urushi” lacquer ware and “washi” paper products) like his renowned lamps series, to high technology consumer products as television sets or robots. In his works, he constantly recreates and creates the culture of both countries, which, from his point of view, are separated only by a distance that is just geographical.

Some of his designs are current top selling products manufactured by a wide range of companies, including Sharp, Cassina, Moroso and Mitsubishi. Many of these products have received industrial design awards in several countries, such as the Product Design Award from the Institute of Business Designers in U.S.A., the Mainichi Design Award in Japan and the Delta de Oro Award in Spain.

Several pieces of his work have been selected for the permanent collections of important museums of modern arts and design, such as the “ Museum of Modern Art” (MOMA) of New York, the “Centre Culturel George Pompidou” of Paris and the “Pinakothek der Moderne” in Munich.

He is an active designer and design thinker, and constantly promotes and participates in events such as the “Japan Good Design Award” as a chairman of the judge and the “Osaka Design Forum” in Japan and several symposiums and workshops in different countries.

Designer Kita constantly researches on new materials and typologies for useful objects with a recovery of the ancient traditions of his country, reinterpreting the lessons of Japanese crafts: “giving a soul to objects and their design”. He is also a professor at the Osaka University of Arts and the author of the books "Movement as Concept” (1990), “Washi and Urushi, Reinterpretation of Tradition” (1999) and “The Soul of Design” (2001).

Always with a smile in his face and in a very friendly manner, while talking for around one hour and a half with me in an interesting and funny mixture between Japanese, Italian, English and body language (due to my basic Japanese level), with the help of some drawings and an electronic dictionary, Mr. Kita discussed the following items while we both drank a cup of the traditional and delicious Japanese green tea.

The Interview

Carlos Montana (CM): Dear Mr. Kita, Good afternoon. It is a pleasure to meet you. As you know, this interview is to be presented to the Latin American and Colombian design community. Have you ever visited any Latin American country? If such, which country and why?

Toshiyuki Kita (TK): Good Afternoon. The truth is I would surely like to visit Latin America again, but really the only chance I had was 35 years ago, when I went to Mexico. Actually, I know that Colombia is somewhat near Mexico. (He laughs) It takes around 3 hours by airplane, doesn’t it?

(CM): That’s right. And we share the Latin culture and the Spanish language. By the way, what do you know about designers and design movements in Colombia and Latin America?

(TK): Actually I don’t know very much about it. But one of the things I do remember vividly is the great variety of colors and beauty of traditional crafts.

(CM): Have you maybe met Latin-American designers in Italy, as for example in the Milan Furniture Fair?

(TK): Not really. However I have seen in some exhibitions interesting pieces with strong Latin American identity with products that have a relationship to traditional crafts.

(CM): Latin American culture has a very strong influence from European culture. In that sense, Italian culture also has a strong relationship with Latin America . However, Italian culture and Japanese culture can seem distant and almost opposite. Can you explain your point of view about their relationship (as for example in culture, lifestyles, and especially in architecture and design)?

(TK): Well yes. When we compare Italy and Japan, we find a very different culture. For me the image of Italy , for example, is that of the rock. Ancient constructions were all in rock. Also in Italy the weather is dry. In that sense, in Japan our traditional architecture was made in wood. This is due to the humidity. In another aspect, for example, food has several similarities.

Related to lifestyle, there are also some differences, but I think that in the essentials of life there are also several similarities, as for example, in the people and their way of thinking. The people of Osaka have similar way of thinking to the people in Milan. In both cases, we don’t have a lot of natural resources.

Talking about nature, for example, in Japan, according to the Shinto religion, in nature itself the gods are present, while in Italy we find Christianity which is very different. But I think that people, and their heart is what really is similar. I even think that in that sense we must also find several similarities with Colombia. Even though I have never been in Colombia, I am sure that the people have similar thoughts and lifestyles. For example when I went to live to Italy, it was something very natural. And finally human life is very similar around the world. Wake up in the morning, sleeping in the evening. I really think it’s a matter of understanding people, and specially their hearts.

In relation to architecture, I think there are several differences. In Italy we find walls made with bricks. These walls stop the air, they block it. In Japan , because of the humidity, the houses were built with wood and paper in order to let the wind pass through. While in Italy the preferred materials were soil, stones and bricks in Japan was popular the use of bamboo and wood. This, of course, was the way of thinking of long time ago. Nowadays we all use air conditioners. The contemporary concepts and designs are all similar nowadays around the world. Also, today’s, communications are very similar around the world. That’s the globalization process. Today what is really difficult is to keep our identity. I think that is our problem today. Italy is still Italy, Japan is Japan and Colombia is Colombia. I think that is the question designers have to ask themselves today. Identity: where can we find it and what is it? That is our theme. I think that this identity has to do a lot with the places, their weather and their nature. I think nature is the basis of our identity and our future. It defines our food, for example. In Japan we have a very tough nature. We have typhoons and we have big earthquakes (laughing).

Today’s lifestyle is similar around the world. Food has also suffered globalization. We can find spaghetti or sushi all around the world (laughs). For example, what is the name of the Colombian tortilla ….

(CM): A type of corn tortilla? “Arepa”? (Laughs)

(TK): Yes, yes. For example, “Arepa”. Today we can find a meal with spaghetti, sushi and arepa. But however, they all preserve the identity of their country. Even if you eat some Italian pasta in Colombia , it still has its identity.

(CM): Yes, you are right. Before we continue, I would like to ask another question related to your explanation of architecture. For me it is strange that in Japan nature is adored, the Gods themselves, but on the other hand there is a fear of nature, as for example earthquakes or tsunamis. This seems like a contradiction.

(TK): Yes, we fear nature. For example, especially in old times, the sun, a big tree or a stone, each one is a God. All the gods are in nature. If you want to understand Shinto and Japanese way of thinking, please go to Ise Jingu Grand Shrine, in Mie prefecture. Ise is a very strong symbol of our culture. I am sure that if you go to Ise, you would understand this Japanese way of thinking. This is the center of Japanese identity. In other times most Japanese people would go there. Nowadays unfortunately, people don’t go very much.

(CM): Hmm. Why?

(TK): Maybe Japanese people are not so enlightened any more (bursts in a loud laughter) or we are all very busy (laughs again).

(CM): Well, I guess people never appreciate what they have in their own country. Just when you are a foreigner you see the nice things in other countries and you miss your own things.

(TK): Exactly Carlos. I am sure you have also experienced this feeling here in Japan.

(CM): Yes, that’s true. And talking about identity, what are, in your opinion, the characteristics and the main elements that define Japanese design?

(TK): Well, as per my own opinion, Japanese design identity is here (he starts showing page by page pictures from his book “Washi and Urushi: Reinterpretation of Tradition”). In Urushi (Japanese lacquer) you can see the details, the straight simple borders, seamless. Also, if you think of the handcrafter when he produces each piece, he is putting his soul in each piece. I think this is very important in Japanese design, and it comes from our religion Shinto. When producing objects, we put our heart into them; we put our feelings into them. Objects become not only things, but they are elements that can produce a sensation and a feeling in human beings. This feeling is what is really important.

(CM): I can understand this appreciation when related to handcrafted products, but what happens with industrial products?

(TK): That is exactly the question I ask myself when I design. What emotion, what feeling will this object produce in other people? (He takes a piece of paper and starts to draw happy and sad faces). Very simple variations in shape can affect our perception, our feelings, see? Form expresses feeling. When I design (while pointing at his TV design for Sharp) I try to put feelings into the products. I don’t like cold products. I like friendly, human products. Always, when I design, I think in the product as a friend and I try to put this feeling into it, very subtly (he explains this while sketching happy faces with subtle changes). Function is very important, but this function does not have to be cold. Function can be friendly. This is where form is very important. Form expresses feelings. And color is also very powerful. Form and color transmit a message and this message affects our feelings. Cold forms, happy forms, gentle forms, friendly forms, dangerous forms, they all carry a message. I have experimented very much with different forms, and they do not have to be extremely soft and curvy to be friendly. Of course, materials also carry this message. Let’s look at other example (while showing a Japanese space from one of his books). A contemporary “washitsu” (traditional Japanese room). I made this experiment trying to make the smallest possible “washitsu”. All the forms are straight lines, but the materials are friendly, like wood with lacquer. This is where the Japanese spirit is preserved in the place. Because it comes from the heart. It is also a minimalism, but not a cold minimalism. It is a soft, friendly minimalism. A minimalism with heart. I tried to give this feeling, for example, to the robot I designed (for Mitsubishi). People think that a robot is cold. I wanted a friendly robot, so I strained the shape of the eyes and gave a soft smile. In this case, the shape of the eyes is very important, very expressive.

(CM): I have another question. When researching and thinking about a country’s identity, we find, for example in handcrafts: materials, techniques, colors, and traditional shapes. We can try to produce new products with traditional materials and techniques, but this can be considered to disrespect tradition.

(TK): No, I don’t think so. Let’s look at some examples. (Again showing pictures from his book “Washi and Urushi”). Here you can see some original traditional handcrafts. Some of them were made one thousand years ago, some just one hundred years ago. In these products, it is not just the shape that counts. It is their technique, the heart that the artisan gave to it. And this can be reinterpreted.

(CM): Ok, but also sometimes we find traditional products and shapes with new materials, as for example, plastic, very far from the original materials used for the traditional handcrafts. What do you think about this?

(TK): In the case of a traditional shape made with an industrial material, I don’t think this is bad, because in any case it carries some nostalgia. However, it is just a styling exercise. It is neither something logical nor something with a real heart. （ looks again for some images from his book ） In the case of handcraft, the traditional technique and process is what really counts. Look at “washi” (Japanese paper) for example. This process has been developed through hundred years. And the artisans put their hearts into it during the production process. The process and the material is what’s really important. The traditional shape can be modified, with very careful attention to the details. But the new product will preserve the tradition. With this care for the process, the artisan puts his heart into the product.

(CM): Talking about design in general, what do you think is its roll within our society and culture?

(TK): For me the keyword of design is “chowa” (balance). Also harmony. The harmony between different things. The harmony between people and things. I think that is design. If the design is not good, it breaks the harmony. I think that the importance of design in our society is to make our life richer and to help us express our feelings and our hearts. But maybe the most important roll of design in our society is communication. This communication can be between people, or also of the objects with the people. And in this relationship is where we find the harmony, a natural balance.

Of course, design also has many objectives. For example, make products easier to use and understand, beautiful. Also cost, ecological aspects, cultural aspects. Design deals with so many things, like dreams, or the future, but really what is important is to reach a balance. Usually, design that is not good is design that does not have a balance. For example, beautiful, but extremely expensive products. Or even products that are beautiful, but dangerous. There we find a lack of balance.

(CM): What is, from your point of view, the importance of “concept” in design?

(TK): For me, it is basically the same thing. And in this case, also the balance is very important.

(CM): You wrote the book "Movement as Concept". Can you tell us some more about the thoughts behind this book? Do you consider this book expresses your personal design philosophy?

(TK): Yes. Again it is the same idea. (He stands up, stretches his arms and balances his body in one foot, moving from side to side). Movement is the only way to acquire balance, and that is why it is so important. In my book I try to show this. Another example is technology. Nature is very important, but the way of reaching a balance between people and nature is through technology. For example, today we are too many people in this planet, and if we don’t get a balance with nature through technology, we will not survive. We can’t go backwards, and we can’t stop either. We always have to continue forward. Today we can’t go back to nature, forgetting all the technology we have gained. We have to look to the future with the balance in mind. And the technology has to be controlled, but this control has to come from the heart. Probably we can move slowly with technology, but we can never stop. Even the problems will never stop. It is like an airplane flying, it can slow down or turn, but if it stops, it falls and crashes. It may seem a little bit dangerous or even scary, but it is reality. On the other hand, the environment is ill. We know this and it is something we have to think constantly. If we design things that appeal to peoples hearts, they will care for them. These things will not be thrown away so easily. Objects without any heart will be discarded immediately.

(CM): What do you think is the essence of a “good design”? Having yourself been the president of the jury in the “Good Design Award” in Japan , what would you say is the importance of national design awards?

(TK): In Japan , the “Good Design Awards” will celebrate their 50th edition next year. Japan is a country that does not have many natural resources. That’s why our people, ideas and technology became our best resource. In that sense, design is one of our main resources. And it is not only a matter of economy or a matter of industry. Design is present today in almost everything, so it becomes a resource to improve everyday life.

(CM): In many Latin American countries, and specifically in the case of Colombia , there is a strong relationship between handcrafts and design. How do you see this relationship? What would you recommend to the people involved in such activities?

(TK): I think, in the case of handcraft production improved with design, that the most important thing is to really make some improvement in the handcrafters’ life, making it fun and interesting. I think communication is very important. You have to really understand the process, and the handcrafters’ life. It is very important to share daily life, to have dinner together, to have fun together and to have enough dialogue. The process and the final product should be a way of friendship. For example, when you establish a relationship of friendship, you can develop better products.

Also, through handcrafted products, you can make special products. If a very special friend comes to your house, and you want to attend him, you will probably not use a plastic cup. You will use a cup which is more special, which you have to handle with care. Traditional handcrafted products become these very special products to improve human relationships. It is something that you can’t just go and buy in the supermarket; you have to appreciate their value. And also the important thing is to build the market substantially, such as a world-wide brand from the Colombian culture.

I think that the best products are born when people work together as friends, sharing their lives. Traditional crafts may take long time to produce, but also, they are made to last longer. It is also, very important, to have a lot of communication in this process, to know what people like and why they like it. For example with furniture, when somebody goes to a house and says: “What a nice piece of furniture, I would like to have some furniture like that”. This is also a reason for communication. Not just something that you use without thinking of it. That’s why I think that communication is very important. It would be a base of advancement for daily life and also making a world-wide brand.

(CM): In many Latin American countries, handcrafts are usually not valued, and people even think that if a product is handmade, it should be very cheap.

(TK): I think this is part of the job of the designer. Here in Japan also, some of these products were very cheap. But now they have acquired a new value.

(CM): Let’s talk about you as a designer. How would you describe your professional process?

(TK): I have very clear that I am not an artist. I am a designer. As such, I can’t think only in the things I like. When I design something, as for example this cup, I make many questions. Who will use it and how? I try to think from the point of view of the user, not from my point of view. Who will make it? I try to think also from the point of view of the president of the producing company. How much will it cost? I also think in the marketing process of the product. These three are the most important ways of thinking. And nowadays, of course, ecological factors.

I am very aware that products are not pieces of art. We produce ten thousand, or five thousand pieces. Being aware of the point of view of the user and trying to make the consumer happy is what I always think about. In the case of the TV, I was thinking in a product that would be friendly, even if not in use. Or when I design chairs, even if people are not sitting on them they can appreciate them.

(CM): How do you think your way of thinking has changed through the years? How would you describe your professional evolution?

(TK): Well, I had to learn through experience. When I was young, I had no idea about marketing. When you are a designer, it is very important to be able to talk to many different people. Good communication, being able to dialogue. It is also very important to be able to have different experiences. But obviously, you learn from your own experience and build your career. You have to be able to try many things, and keep them in your memory.

(CM): From all your works, which is the project which you like the most and why?

(TK): The truth is that I usually enjoy and like all my projects.

(CM): But there must be some special ones. Maybe it can be a very difficult project, or a very easy project that just appeared from nowhere, or even a project that took a long time to develop.

(TK): Well, let me see. This one I like very much (browsing in one of his books). Its name is “TAKO” (Kite, in Japanese. A lamp made with a single sheet of “washi” paper). I designed this lamp 35 years ago. This is another one of my favorite projects. (Browsing in another book).Its name is “SARUYAMA” (In Japanese, the mountain of the monkey. A voluminous, sculptural set of organic chairs that can be assembled together.) This is one of my first designs, in 1967. Actually it was not produced until 1990. One of the concepts I like the most is the one of the WINK chair.

(CM): Let’s talk about the business of design, the real world. Usually, the relationship between design, production and marketing is a very important but very complex one. What is your approach to this relationship?

(TK): Well, definitely marketing is very important. Again, between design, production and marketing, the ideal is to achieve a balance. I usually start by discussing the project with the manufacturer, trying to discover exactly what’s the type of product they want. For example, how many pieces they want to sell. Just a limited collection of one hundred pieces? One hundred thousand pieces? If it’s just one hundred pieces, it is better to try handmade. If it’s one hundred thousand pieces, maybe it’s better to try pressure molding. Then we think about where the product will be sold. One hundred pieces in a specialized store. One hundred thousand pieces probably in the supermarket. I think that the most important part of design is this kind of discussion.

(CM): One of the most important and complex activities designers have to deal with is the protection of their ideas (patents) especially when approaching a manufacturer for the first time. What is your recommendation for young designers in relation to this?

(TK): Yes, this is very important. When I was a young designer, one of my first designs was a pasta pot. I never thought of patenting it. Soon there were several copies of the pot in the market. I think that as possible, designers should try to patent their ideas.

(CM): When was this?

(TK): At the end of the 1970`s. I was working in Japan on design for pans.

(CM): Sometimes for an individual designer, this is a time consuming and expensive process.

(TK): No. (Emphasizing) It might be expensive, but it is very, very important. And you can always try to negotiate with the maker, to assume the costs of the patent together.

(CM): And when you are approaching a manufacturer, how do you protect your idea before showing it to them?

(TK): I usually try to negotiate to patent together, or to agree upon Royalties. We usually sign a contract. Protecting you ideas is very important.

(CM): The term “Designer” is somewhat ambiguous. As professionals, we are usually seen as generalists, with many possible variations, as designer-artist, designer-engineer, designer-inventor and designer-salesman. How would you define your profession, and what is your point of view of the different specialties?

(TK): For me, the most important aspect of design is the user. I am also a consumer, and I always think like a consumer. When I buy something, I try to think why I buy it. I try to think like other consumers: a housewife, for example, or a man buying the product. I try to act, and imagine myself buying and using the product. I try to forget that I am designing, but concentrate in the point of view of the consumer. At the same time , I think of other things, as cost, safety, recycling. And then I try to see if there is a balance.

(CM): So, could we say that you see design more as the work of a generalist, and not of a specialist?

(TK): Personally I am very interested in human beings and their feelings. All human beings are equal. All of us have feelings. I think feelings are like a barometer to measure balance. And this is the same globally, around the world.

(CM): Let’s talk about something quite different, design education. According to your personal experience, what are the most important things a designer should learn and know? Dou you agree with some special type of design school or methodology? If so, which one and why?

(TK): Actually I am also a professor at the Osaka University of Arts. In relation to education, one of the things I try to teach to my students is that a designer is not an artist. It is very important to know about technology, economy, materials, and many different things.

Maybe the most important thing you can learn is to understand “nichijou no kurashi” (daily life). To understand lifestyles. A person’s lifestyle, from the time you wake up to the time you go to sleep is very important. If you can’t understand lifestyles, you can’t become a designer. Every day I try to analyze daily life, understanding lifestyles. I think that 90% of designing is observing the daily life, the normal lifestyles of people. Maybe the remaining 10% includes all the other factors. This is, for me, what design is about. It is about everyday life. The importance of this is trying to make daily life more interesting, more fun. For example, every day we all have a routine. Wake up in the morning, eat breakfast, brush our teeth, get a train, go to work, meet friends, etc. All these daily routines are very important in life. If you can’t learn to observe and understand these daily routines, you can’t become a designer. That’s why I think that in design education, the most important things can’t be taught. You have to learn by yourself. You have to experience them, living and enjoying life. You also have to talk to many different people, communication is very important. “Omoiyari”: consideration and understanding of people and their feelings. An understanding of daily life. If you can’t understand and communicate with people, you can’t obtain a good design.

(CM): Two common words in today’s design world: “universal” and “sustainable”. What is your opinion about these terms and their relationship to design?

(TK): I think it is just new words. Actually in the past the concepts also existed. The way of thinking comes from long time ago. Maybe something important, although a bit different, is what is happening in many countries lately. In Japan, for example, the elder population has increased considerably. So maybe in that sense we now use often the word “universal”, but this way of thinking comes from long time ago. It is not something new. It has to do with something we talked about before. With “Omoiyari”: consideration and understanding of people and their feelings. The same with sustainability. It is not something new.

(CM): Let’s talk about your view of the future. How do you visualize design and its roll in society in 10 years?

(TK): I think in the future there will be basically two very important issues. One is environmental factors. We know today that nature and the environment are sick, and we know we have to stop destroying nature. The problems with the ozone layer, gas emissions, and all these problems we have to stop them and fast. And to do this we have to develop new technologies. This will be an important roll of design.

The second issue is cost. I guess we will reach a world wide balance in the economies. For example, today China is emerging and producing with very low prices. I think that in 10 years we will reach a balance. This economy will be part of the increasing globalization process.

I think we can understand economy like the flow of water. Water flows from high lands to lower lands. Economy works the same way, and resources will flow from strong economies to weak economies, getting closer to a balance. And design will be an important part of all this. Of course, design will become more and more difficult, as well as obtaining balance. For example, balance between men and nature. Many problems have to be thought of : the increase of population, the use of resources, transportation, communication. So many problems will need a lot of work and a lot of design. In this sense, design and its social function will become more and more important.

(CM): Finally, What would be your recommendation for all the new generations of designers all around the world?

(TK): The first thing I would recommend is “yuuki”: courage. Second, to pursue your dreams: “volare” (to fly, in Italian). Third is “kibou”: hope.

Then, “akiramenaide”: never give up. Also something we talked about before: “omoiyari”: consideration and understanding. This consideration should care for nature, animals, things and people. And finally, I think it is very important to believe that things can be done. Everything is possible. This is something everybody says. (Laughs). But it is really important.

(CM) :A final question, just because of curiosity. Why did you decide to go to Italy ?

(TK): I don’t know. (Laughs). I remember thinking when I was a child “what would it be like to go to Italy ?” Maybe I saw it in books when I was young. Definitely it was not something I had pursued for a long time and I thought I had to surely do it. It had no relation with design either. It had more to do with curiosity, with an interest in the culture. I should go and have a look and see what happens. That is what I thought. (Laughs).

(CM) Well, thank you very much for your time. It has been a very interesting and nice talk.

(TK): Oh, no. It has been my pleasure. Thank you, Carlos.

This interview took place in Mr. Kita’s Studio, in Osaka , on March 1 st, 2005 .

About the Author: Carlos Alberto Montaña Hoyos was born in Bogota, Colombia. He obtained an industrial design degree from Javeriana University in 1997. Has worked in different fields of design, including packaging, electric appliances, lighting, furniture, contemporary handcraft, ceramic product, advertisement and photography. He has also been a design lecturer in the product design engineering program of Eafit University, in Medellin. His designs have recieved diverse awards. He currently lives in Japan, where he researches asian design, while pursuing a master´s degree in integrated design at Kobe Design University, with a scholarship from the Japanese government.